The League

Huh?

I'm guessing he's trying to resign him for more years, but he probably could have just tagged him at the end of the year.

I guess I need to hold another class for this year?
When you got the most money, you can do a lot
Maybe I should have tagged him and paid him a top 5 salary and then lose him and get a rookie in return

Well I personally feel it's against "sportsmanship" to try to do something like that. Nothing personal against you but frankly it's just not right to try to scam the system like that. There are many ways to scam the system that owners just don't do because it can create problems in the league. I think this is one of them. If we all started to do it, it would be chaos.

Just my , change appreciated.

bonscott wrote:Well I personally feel it's against "sportsmanship" to try to do something like that. Nothing personal against you but frankly it's just not right to try to scam the system like that. There are many ways to scam the system that owners just don't do because it can create problems in the league. I think this is one of them. If we all started to do it, it would be chaos.

Just my , change appreciated.

Doesn't everyone get an opportunity to bid on the player? Was that apart of my strategy? How is that bad sportsmanship? You see in the NFL when players such as Issac Bruce are cut and clear waivers and resigned for a more cap friendly deal....My player being cut and going back on the open market is the equivalent to waivers

I also took the cap hit

I think sportsmanship was a bad term to throw out there. I would get a little offended if I didn't think it was a touch of jealousy in the smart tactic involved. The bad thing for me was that he pretty much will go for market value. It was worth a try. I will be able to sign him to a longer contract though

Just my . You keep the change

No jealousy at all.

I didn't view this as a cutthroat league before but if that is the direction we are going I can certainly play that game.

I'll just leave it at that. I don't want to get people all riled up.

Boyz II Men wrote:I guess I need to hold another class for this year?
When you got the most money, you can do a lot
Maybe I should have tagged him and paid him a top 5 salary and then lose him and get a rookie in return

You do realize he will now be right up there with the top 5 salaries?

BTW I have no problem whatsoever with a move like this. I do think Boys could have timed it a little better and waited until after the draft or closer to the start of the season when teams have even less money to bid against him.

Achon44 wrote:

Boyz II Men wrote:I guess I need to hold another class for this year?
When you got the most money, you can do a lot
Maybe I should have tagged him and paid him a top 5 salary and then lose him and get a rookie in return

You do realize he will now be right up there with the top 5 salaries?

BTW I have no problem whatsoever with a move like this. I do think Boys could have timed it a little better and waited until after the draft or closer to the start of the season when teams have even less money to bid against him.

I tried to get him on the cheap but I didn't want to wait till after the draft when some people would sign their rookies and then place them on the practice squad. I was hoping to get him arond the 4 million dollar range but it didn't work out. He will be around the 10th highest WR salary and he finished around top 10 WR wise last year...I cost myself an extra million or so from what I planned in salary but I gain extra years on his contract

Boyz II Men wrote:

Achon44 wrote:

Boyz II Men wrote:I guess I need to hold another class for this year?
When you got the most money, you can do a lot
Maybe I should have tagged him and paid him a top 5 salary and then lose him and get a rookie in return

You do realize he will now be right up there with the top 5 salaries?

BTW I have no problem whatsoever with a move like this. I do think Boys could have timed it a little better and waited until after the draft or closer to the start of the season when teams have even less money to bid against him.

I tried to get him on the cheap but I didn't want to wait till after the draft when some people would sign their rookies and then place them on the practice squad. I was hoping to get him arond the 4 million dollar range but it didn't work out. He will be around the 10th highest WR salary and he finished around top 10 WR wise last year...I cost myself an extra million or so from what I planned in salary but I gain extra years on his contract

Don't forget the 10% bump...

bonscott wrote:No jealousy at all.

I didn't view this as a cutthroat league before but if that is the direction we are going I can certainly play that game.

I'll just leave it at that. I don't want to get people all riled up.

A cutthroat league, by me cutting MY player...giving YOU and everyone else a chance to sign him
Maybe I just don't see it

A cutthroat move IMO would be signing 5 QBs in a 16 team league and waiting for someone's QB to go down...maybe that would be cutthroat

I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

Maybe not...but I'm sure we could think of tons of rules that should also apply towards

I just think that the cap hit was setup to penalize anyone wanting to play with THEIR salary cap. I took the cap hit...all $225,00 of it. It also should reward good roster and cap management

Boyz II Men wrote:

irishpride8 wrote:This is a rule that I'm made for the dynasty league that I'm starting for my friends. They ALL didn't like the fact that you didn't have the option to resign a player for more years. We aslo have the the 3 tags and 1 Contract Extension per player per year I wish I had time to make a table in this message. The bold ones go together
Contract Extensions

Owners can extend any player's contract, except for a rookies contract (see rookie extension rules below), at anytime from May 15 to Aug. 1 (Pre-Season). All players with 1 year remaining on their contract in the current season at that time are eligible for a contract extension before the games begin.

1 contract extension per team, per player, per season.

Contract Extensions are based on the last years salary, not the one with the 10% increase.

Contracts can't not go under $425,000

At the end of the current season, the Commissioner ranks all players based on their final season statistical ranking from the prior two seasons (rookies based on the current season only) by position and they must of played in at least 24 NFL games. The player's tier ranking determines the player's contract extension percentage. To calculate the player's new current season salary multiply the appropriate contract extension percentage by the player's current season salary. This new salary replaces the original auction value in calculating the future year's salary (see example below). Player contract extensions run from two years and beyond. The owner determines the length of the new contract. There will only be one extension allowed per team/per player per season. The owner must submit the length of the contract to the commissioner at the same time the owner notifies the commissioner of the contract extension. It will cost more to extend the contract of player for 1 or 2 years than it would be to extend it to 3 or more years.

1 Year Remaining on Current Contract (1 or 2 year extention)

Contract Extension Percentage
RB-WR Tier Rank
D-K-QB-TE Tier Rank

20%
1-2
1-3

10%
3-6
4-5

5%
7-11
6-7
2%
12-16
8-10

1%
17-21
11-13

-1%
22-25
14-18

-4%
26-32
19-22

-6%
33-40
23-32
1 Years Remaining on Current Contract (3 years or more extention)

Contract Extension Percentage
RB-WR Rank
D-K-QB-TE Rank

15%
1
1
5%
2-3
2
3%
4-5
3-4

2%
6-10
5-6
-1%
11-15
7-9
-3%
16-20
10-15
-6%
21-26
16-20

-9%
27-40
21-32

I would love if we could add something like this to our league

This from the guy who said giving RBs half a point per reception penalizes him for his superior draft strategy.

Achon44 wrote:

Boyz II Men wrote:

irishpride8 wrote:This is a rule that I'm made for the dynasty league that I'm starting for my friends. They ALL didn't like the fact that you didn't have the option to resign a player for more years. We aslo have the the 3 tags and 1 Contract Extension per player per year I wish I had time to make a table in this message. The bold ones go together
Contract Extensions

Owners can extend any player's contract, except for a rookies contract (see rookie extension rules below), at anytime from May 15 to Aug. 1 (Pre-Season). All players with 1 year remaining on their contract in the current season at that time are eligible for a contract extension before the games begin.

1 contract extension per team, per player, per season.

Contract Extensions are based on the last years salary, not the one with the 10% increase.

Contracts can't not go under $425,000

At the end of the current season, the Commissioner ranks all players based on their final season statistical ranking from the prior two seasons (rookies based on the current season only) by position and they must of played in at least 24 NFL games. The player's tier ranking determines the player's contract extension percentage. To calculate the player's new current season salary multiply the appropriate contract extension percentage by the player's current season salary. This new salary replaces the original auction value in calculating the future year's salary (see example below). Player contract extensions run from two years and beyond. The owner determines the length of the new contract. There will only be one extension allowed per team/per player per season. The owner must submit the length of the contract to the commissioner at the same time the owner notifies the commissioner of the contract extension. It will cost more to extend the contract of player for 1 or 2 years than it would be to extend it to 3 or more years.

1 Year Remaining on Current Contract (1 or 2 year extention)

Contract Extension Percentage
RB-WR Tier Rank
D-K-QB-TE Tier Rank

20%
1-2
1-3

10%
3-6
4-5

5%
7-11
6-7
2%
12-16
8-10

1%
17-21
11-13

-1%
22-25
14-18

-4%
26-32
19-22

-6%
33-40
23-32
1 Years Remaining on Current Contract (3 years or more extention)

Contract Extension Percentage
RB-WR Rank
D-K-QB-TE Rank

15%
1
1
5%
2-3
2
3%
4-5
3-4

2%
6-10
5-6
-1%
11-15
7-9
-3%
16-20
10-15
-6%
21-26
16-20

-9%
27-40
21-32

I would love if we could add something like this to our league

This from the guy who said giving RBs half a point per reception penalizes him for his superior draft strategy.

My 14-4 record would tend to validate

Boyz II Men wrote:

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

Maybe not...but I'm sure we could think of tons of rules that should also apply towards

I just think that the cap hit was setup to penalize anyone wanting to play with THEIR salary cap. I took the cap hit...all $225,00 of it. It also should reward good roster and cap management

No, all it does it let someone do something cheesy like have just enough cap space more then anyone else to drop a guy and get him cheap for long term contract. Didn't work out this time but could certainly happen in the future.

Hey, I'm not saying it's not a good move or a good try. It's just if we want to go down that road it can be bad. I know some can't see it but I have seen league destroyed by this kind of thing because all it does is piss people off and eventually people quit over it.

Just be careful with this kind of thing.

bonscott wrote:

Boyz II Men wrote:

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

Maybe not...but I'm sure we could think of tons of rules that should also apply towards

I just think that the cap hit was setup to penalize anyone wanting to play with THEIR salary cap. I took the cap hit...all $225,00 of it. It also should reward good roster and cap management

No, all it does it let someone do something cheesy like have just enough cap space more then anyone else to drop a guy and get him cheap for long term contract. Didn't work out this time but could certainly happen in the future.

Hey, I'm not saying it's not a good move or a good try. It's just if we want to go down that road it can be bad. I know some can't see it but I have seen league destroyed by this kind of thing because all it does is piss people off and eventually people quit over it.

Just be careful with this kind of thing.

I see where you are coming from but my thing is that there will always be bargains and there will always be players that are overpriced. This IMO, seperates the good from the bad owners

Maybe someone should have been mad that Welker was under $50000 in the first place. I would hope that we don't have owners like that in our league...good idea for a poll though

Boyz II Men wrote:My 14-4 record would tend to validate

All it validates is that you are only for a rule change when you feel it benefits your team.

Achon44 wrote:

Boyz II Men wrote:My 14-4 record would tend to validate

All it validates is that you are only for a rule change when you feel it benefits your team.

or .....maybe when it doesn't penalize my team based upon rules at the time of the initial auction

I still can't get why you feel like your players didn't score enough so lets add this to the rules to help them is fair and should be accepted

That's why we work through scoring and lineup rules before you draft/auction....if that wasn't going to be the case, then why not just say "hey we'll start with these rules, but if TEs and RBs don't score as much as we think...let's change it next year"

Maybe I just don't get it....we can agree to disagree on this subject...not going to continue to whine about it though

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

I don't have a problem with it at all, especially this time of year as everyone has an opportunity to bid on him so instead of having the player real cheap you get him for true market value. The only problem that I can see with doing this is towards the end of the season when teams are strapped for cap space. The way the rules are set up you have to have cap space to bid on players so the only way to make a bid on a guy like welker would be to drop someone in the hope that you could sign him. That is probably to risky for most teams.

braven112 wrote:

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

I don't have a problem with it at all, especially this time of year as everyone has an opportunity to bid on him so instead of having the player real cheap you get him for true market value. The only problem that I can see with doing this is towards the end of the season when teams are strapped for cap space. The way the rules are set up you have to have cap space to bid on players so the only way to make a bid on a guy like welker would be to drop someone in the hope that you could sign him. That is probably to risky for most teams.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that during the regular season all the bidding is blind. This adds a huge amount of risk to the owner dropping the player.

Achon44 wrote:

braven112 wrote:

acerfc wrote:I dont have a huge problem with it and I think it was a smart move. However, I dont think this should be allowed in season.

I don't have a problem with it at all, especially this time of year as everyone has an opportunity to bid on him so instead of having the player real cheap you get him for true market value. The only problem that I can see with doing this is towards the end of the season when teams are strapped for cap space. The way the rules are set up you have to have cap space to bid on players so the only way to make a bid on a guy like welker would be to drop someone in the hope that you could sign him. That is probably to risky for most teams.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that during the regular season all the bidding is blind. This adds a huge amount of risk to the owner dropping the player.

How so?

If someone tries this during the regular season they can only put one bid and one bid only on that player. They can't set a proxy like Boys did and then once another owner goes over it go back in and raise it. He's said himself this hasn't worked out the way he tought. Plus, you never know who might take a shot at the player and who won't. If I have $4M in cap space there's a chance I'm going to bid all $4M, while at the same time I may have no interest at all in bidding, but you'll still probably place your bid according to the fact another team could bid $4M. There's also owners who won't have a problem dropping a higher priced player on a 1 year contract to free up enough space to throw down a big bid. Is there a chance a team could really work a bargain? Sure there is, but I don't think it will be as easy as some think.

With that said the only serious loophole would be somebody dropping a player with 10 min to go before waivers run and then rebidding on that player. That's something we may want to take a look at...

Achon44 wrote:If someone tries this during the regular season they can only put one bid and one bid only on that player. They can't set a proxy like Boys did and then once another owner goes over it go back in and raise it. He's said himself this hasn't worked out the way he tought. Plus, you never know who might take a shot at the player and who won't. If I have $4M in cap space there's a chance I'm going to bid all $4M, while at the same time I may have no interest at all in bidding, but you'll still probably place your bid according to the fact another team could bid $4M. There's also owners who won't have a problem dropping a higher priced player on a 1 year contract to free up enough space to throw down a big bid. Is there a chance a team could really work a bargain? Sure there is, but I don't think it will be as easy as some think.

With that said the only serious loophole would be somebody dropping a player with 10 min to go before waivers run and then rebidding on that player. That's something we may want to take a look at...

Thanks for the additional details, in terms of this Welker move, I really don't have a problem with it, I've thought about doing it and what the ramifications would be. Throw out sportsmanship for a second and just look at whether its a smart move or not. I personally don't think it is, especially this time of year too many teams have extra cap room. Its a little less risky in that the bids are out in the open and you can see what you get the player for but I think it also removes any reward. Now you have the same team but you have to pay more money for it. He's already signed for 2 years if you factor in the franchise or transition tag. You're only potentially gaining 2-3 years and as you can see your going to pay a premium those years anyway.

All in all I don't think what was done was shady or unsportsmanlike, I just think it was dumb.

In terms of blind bidding during the season there is far more risk but also more reward if you drop Welker week 9 for example, a lot of teams would have would have used their available cap room, so you might get a situation where 3 million is the max someone could sign him for. If you want to bid more you have to drop someone, that is a pretty big tell to the original owner that someone is going to make a play and that you might want to increase your bid, but I personally would be reluctant to drop a high priced player if I was in playoff contention unless that player has been a complete flop. Either way a guy like Welker is going to be signed at a much higher salary, maybe under market value, I guess that is the risk you are taking, it entirely possible though that you don't bid enough to keep him and now you're out the player completely.

The scenario where a teams drops a player 10 minutes before waivers are run should be closely examined to prevent that because that could be a problem. My main concern would be dropping a guy like LT or Peyton Manning since their salaries are so high it would be really tough to get a team to free up enough cap room to even bid on a player like that.

RE: Dropping a player 10 minutes before bidding.

I thought that all dropped players were locked until the following week's bidding? Most leagues I'm in are that way and it prevents just exactly this type of scenario. So if Welker were dropped on Tuesday (or 10 minutes before the end of bidding) he would not be available for bidding until the following week. Thus no problems.

RE: As for the "loophole".

My point, probably poorly made, was that say this was August. Everyone's roster is full up. Very few teams have any cap space available and with good reason. Welker gets dropped and bid on right away and goes for only 1.5 million cause nobody has more cap then that. Thus a top 10/15 guy goes cheap for 5 years simply because someone waited until everyone had less cap space then him and didn't have enough to bid high *instead* of the market really determining his value. It's just total cheese and there is no way to say otherwise.

*THIS* is the kind of thing that I have seen rip leagues apart.

Sure, it didn't work out for the Boys this time. Mainly because there were 2 other teams with lots of cap space open. He should have waited until later in the summer to try it. But if he had and if it would have been successful there would have been a much bigger deal about this brought up. Believe me.

I'm only trying to make sure the league doesn't go down that road.

bonscott wrote:RE: As for the "loophole".

My point, probably poorly made, was that say this was August. Everyone's roster is full up. Very few teams have any cap space available and with good reason. Welker gets dropped and bid on right away and goes for only 1.5 million cause nobody has more cap then that. Thus a top 10/15 guy goes cheap for 5 years simply because someone waited until everyone had less cap space then him and didn't have enough to bid high *instead* of the market really determining his value. It's just total cheese and there is no way to say otherwise.

I personaly don't ever see someone going that "cheap". Maybe a little below market value, but not a steal. I feel there will always be at least a few teams with cap room hoping that a Ryan Grant type situation presents itself.